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Liselle November 28th, 2016 7:36 pm

Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
*Dusts things off*

So we used to have these exceptionally wonderful (magical) conversations about the Harry Potter universe - now we have a whole other bunch of magical characters to know, love and understand, what can we learn? Based on the ultimate outcome from Half Blood Prince/Deathly Hallows/Tales of Beedle the Bard, is there anything we can learn or speculate on?


:hmm:

whizbang121 November 28th, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
YES!
Yesterday, I couldnt remember the new password to my email, but this one rolled off my fingers perfectly. Im not sure what that means.

So, Liselle, are we the only ones from Ye Olde Dayes who have seen the film? lol

So we have been speculating on mugglenet's fb fanpage that the Mary Lou might have been a squib and possibly related to Credence. She seems to know a great deal about witches.
My grandson, (Remember the karate kid? He's 20), suggested that perhaps Credence has survived and become so powerful because he didnt start to repress his magic until he was already in puberty, older than ten.
Any ideas?

Liselle November 28th, 2016 7:54 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Some folks do come in from time to time, we should definitely give them a reason to!

Ok so I'm going to operate under the assumption anyone posting here has either read the screenplay or seen the movie.

MaryLou was really disturbing in her approach to the Children and her absolute zeal against magic in all its forms. Being a squib would absolutely fit that perfectly. Credence was just so very sad, I viewed that scene where he's taking the wand out from under the bed as that was his wand; like he's of age + where hed have a wand so maybe he did actually get a wand or inherit a wand from his parents before being adopted by MaryLou.

I think you're right that maybe he went to repress his magic - we know Harry unconsciously was performing magic when he didn't know he was magical so clamping down deliberately on magic must take
1) Iron will
2) Amazing magical ability.

its going to literally leak out.

whizbang121 November 28th, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
I have really been out of the loop since DH and the folks at the mugglenet fb group are much more on top of things. If I understand correctly, a child has to know that they are magical in order to become an obscurial, so Harry and Tom Riddle wouldnt have done it. But Ariana seems to have been the perfect example. Also the title page of the original 2002 Fantastic Beasts in the US shows the scholastic publisher and one called Obscurus in London.

So much to catch up on. Daunting.

Liselle November 28th, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
:lol: tell me about it.

I hadn't come across an obscurus before (I am in the middle of some renovations in the house so my books are not to hand) or at least that I remember. But even aside from that the whole not allowing any magic out and being so super careful and tightly wound must take some amount of skill.

What about Modesty, I know that Credence had managed to throw everyone off the scent that it was him and not Modesty but do you think we've seen the last of her?

And have we seen the last of Credence? The final whisps of the obscurus were very slow to dissipate.

Quote:

A young witch or wizard, usually under the age of ten but sometimes older, who has kept their magical ability repressed until it becomes an Obscurus – a violent force of Dark Magic which may burst forth from them unexpectedly.
I don't know if there's a mention on having to know but maybe its implied?



oh and I think you're right on Ariana Dumbledore. 100%

whizbang121 November 28th, 2016 8:29 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Yes. Well renovating is serious fun. :) Enjoy! It's a very exciting time. Im on the other side of it, downsizing.
I dont know for sure where that info came from. They have kept up with interviews and such, although I have noticed that occasionally there is conflict between info from Heyman and Yates, so Im inclined to only accept JKR. Pottermore, which I never joined and Im scrambling about now, and movie books I havent seen. An avalanche of information! Also, someone kindly explained the term "headcanon" to me this morning. As near as I can tell, it amounts to educated guesses about characters.
I wish I had thought of Ariana, but I guess it's commonly accepted among true believers.

Liselle November 28th, 2016 8:37 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Wow, I've enough time just keeping up with what I see to be actual Canon (i.e. anything from the pen of Jo so that would be books, potter more and fantastic beasts!).

There has been a deluge of information recently alright and trying to decipher it all, sift through it and get it straight in your head. I just find it particularly interesting that we have one set of characters from the HP series and then people related to them a few generations earlier. Its fascinating.

And really, show me the person who wouldn't like some Giggle Water!

Interestingly - and I know I'm straying into something close to one of the magical creatures but the fact there were house elves and goblins and other magical beings all in that speakeasy is progressive. I think way more so than European countries of the time.

willfitz November 29th, 2016 2:06 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107567)
Wow, I've enough time just keeping up with what I see to be actual Canon (i.e. anything from the pen of Jo so that would be books, potter more and fantastic beasts!).

Bingo. I'm more than happy to include this new series in canon, although so far it doesn't seem to me like it will hold up to the level of scrutiny that the books did, details-wise.

Thanks for opening up a thread to discuss this new addition!

Liselle November 29th, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
With pleasure :) I'm always happy to indulge my love of Harry Potter -dom!

I'm really curious who Leta Estrange is and if we'll get to see her and everything.

MrSleepyHead November 29th, 2016 8:11 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
It looks like we will:
SnitchseekerSnitchSeeker: So, we saw Dumbledore's name, we saw Grindelwald's name. There's a third familiar name that came up - Lestrange. Can you talk a bit about Zoe Kravitz's casting and how much bigger a role it will be going forward?
David Heyman: Leta Lestrange is a character we will see in the next film. She's probably misunderstood. Not altogether a happy person. We will see her in the films to come. Clearly, as you can tell from this, there was a relationship between her and Newt, and she still holds - no pun intended - a spell over him in some way. Not literally, a spell.

SnitchSeeker: Are we expecting to see a love triangle?
David Heyman: (shrugs)

And from David Yates:
CinemaBlendYes. Leta Lestrange comes into the second movie. She’s quite complicated and damaged and confused, and Newt is absolutely still in love with her. So, she has a kind of power over him, and she, yeah, she’s a kind of tragic figure, so we will see a bit more of her in the second movie.

willfitz November 29th, 2016 10:15 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
It definitely seems like a natural and popular theory that Ariana Dumbledore was an Obscurial. It was my immediate reaction to the description of what an obscurus was, so I was not surprised to find people already discussing it on here.

I particularly am on-board with the theory suggesting that the culmination of this story will be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's clash leading to Ariana's death. Seems very likely. I wonder if Newt will still be involved in any way at that point of the story.

MrSleepyHead November 29th, 2016 10:30 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by willfitz (Post 6107594)
I particularly am on-board with the theory suggesting that the culmination of this story will be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's clash leading to Ariana's death. Seems very likely. I wonder if Newt will still be involved in any way at that point of the story.

I think it would be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's final duel, no? At this point, Ariana is already dead and seems likely to have been the catalyst for Grindelwald to search out another Obscurial. JKR confirmed the series would cover 19 years, which would put the fifth film at 1945 - the year of the duel.

whizbang121 November 30th, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by willfitz (Post 6107594)
It definitely seems like a natural and popular theory that Ariana Dumbledore was an Obscurial. It was my immediate reaction to the description of what an obscurus was, so I was not surprised to find people already discussing it on here.

https://twitter.com/TheRawHibachi/st...87884637302784

But it didnt kill her, at least not by the account we have. And do I remember that she was 14 when she died?

In other discussions, Im entertaining the possibility that Mary Lou was a squib. This could explain how she knew about witches in a community where No Majs get obliviated three time zones out if they have an inkling about the magical world.

My grandson suggested that Credence may have been older than ten, perhaps past puberty when he began to repress his magic. This could explain why he is still alive and also why it is so powerful. The question arises, why hasnt it killed him? I think that his anger is not self directed. He doesnt blame himself the way many younger children would. For example, young children tend to blame themselves when parents get divorced. But if Credence was old enough to be beyond this stage, his anger would be directed outward and with time, he may even have gained some control over it.

There is also the possibility that he is protecting Modesty. Modesty sings her songs in the first person. My momma, your momma.. (I havent got to the part about the toy wand in the book yet, but I wonder why she would have one at all under Mary Lou's supervision.) Is Modesty a witch or descended from one? Is Credence trying to protect her? If so, this is another example of JKR's favorite theme, self sacrifice.

Lots to think about, including why an American actress has been cast as Leta. Is she an American? Is her mother, witch or No-Maj, from the US and her father British? Maybe she was raised here and got an invitation to Hogwarts on what might be called dual citizenship? If so, being the sole American in the school could account for her being an outcast. If she is a half blood, it would account for Newt's antagonism to MACUSA's stringent rules about relations between Magical and non magical people. It would also explain her absence from family trees.

willfitz December 2nd, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whizbang121 (Post 6107612)
https://twitter.com/TheRawHibachi/st...87884637302784

But it didnt kill her, at least not by the account we have. And do I remember that she was 14 when she died?

No, but then it's still entirely possible. It's not as though Obscurus attacks kill the Obscurial 100% of the time. If it was, Credence would've been dead at the start of this movie. It seems highly likely that Ariana was doomed to eventually die from the condition, but was of course killed prior to that happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead (Post 6107597)
I think it would be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's final duel, no? At this point, Ariana is already dead and seems likely to have been the catalyst for Grindelwald to search out another Obscurial. JKR confirmed the series would cover 19 years, which would put the fifth film at 1945 - the year of the duel.

Yes, that absolutely makes more sense.

Liselle December 5th, 2016 7:34 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
I really hate to think that Grindelwald could have been just using Dumbledore because of his sister - although blatantly he's not going to be a loveable character it just seems so callous.

Whiz, I'm with you on the Credence thing, its not a stretch at all. I'm wondering if he just started repressing his magic if maybe he saw something happen to his parents and he just wanted to be accepted - or whatever twisted version of that given Mary Lou might have wanted to "protect" him from magic. Its a rather twisted parallel and cautionary tale of what could have been for Harry if he'd been less strong himself.

HMN December 6th, 2016 2:53 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107563)
MaryLou was really disturbing in her approach to the Children and her absolute zeal against magic in all its forms. Being a squib would absolutely fit that perfectly. Credence was just so very sad, I viewed that scene where he's taking the wand out from under the bed as that was his wand; like he's of age + where he'd have a wand so maybe he did actually get a wand or inherit a wand from his parents before being adopted by MaryLou.

From the HP Wikia
Mary Lou BareboneMary Lou Barebone at some point became the leader of the New Salem Philanthropic Society, an American No-Maj anti-witchcraft group located in New York. Her hatred towards wizardkind led her to adopt children with magical backgrounds in an attempt to suppress the magic within by raising them to despise witchcraft. By December of 1926, Mary Lou had three adopted children.

I agree that she must have been a squib in order to hate magic the way she does. Her whole story was such a parallel to the religious right, with things like conversion therapy for gays. She was seeking out kids who came from magical backgrounds and trying to convert them. Jo always has social commentary in her stories, and I appreciated it with this storyline. How there are some things you can't change about people no matter how much you break them down. That people are born with who they are.

I'd like to know the back story of the 3 kids, but especially Credence. I wonder if it was a parent's wand, like you said, or if it was a gift from Graves. It was surprising how not well hidden it was, just laying there under the bed. I'd like to think it was one of his parents but then how had he kept it hidden from Mary Lou all that time? Maybe it was out because he was wavering in trying to keep his magic inside of him and he was ready to rebel? I don't know.

I mentioned in another thread the parallel to Ariana. Her holding in her magic after she was traumatized. However she was holding it in because she had experienced pain because outsiders saw who she really was, and her loving family couldn't get her to come out and be herself again. Credence was holding it in because he was taken in by someone who was 'caring' for him and was against it. He'd be homeless otherwise, I am curious what happened to his parents.

witchsmart December 6th, 2016 2:56 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107674)
I really hate to think that Grindelwald could have been just using Dumbledore because of his sister - although blatantly he's not going to be a loveable character it just seems so callous.

I agree, what I found most intriguing about their storyline is that both seemed to have started with (what was to them) noble intentions--the betterment of wizard kind. But when things became serious, it was Albus who stepped back and refused to go further with Grindelwald's plans. That a genuine friendship existed between them and was torn apart by different ideals and morals is much more interesting, to me at least, than Grindelwald having ulterior motives from the start, and it makes him a more complex character. But I can see his interest in Ariana fanning the flames that eventually drove them apart.

HMN December 6th, 2016 2:57 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107674)
I really hate to think that Grindelwald could have been just using Dumbledore because of his sister - although blatantly he's not going to be a loveable character it just seems so callous.

I think Grindlewald saw what happened to Ariana and sought out another like her to try and harness the power. That Ariana was the catalyst for his research into how powerful he could become if he found another. He seemed to have a premonition of sorts that there was a child like this in NY which included Credence, but I'd like more explanation on how that happened. Was it a prophecy? I don't think Grindlewald was using Dumbledore for his sister, I think when she died, he went running - to America - and it caused him to seek out more power in the same form with another child.

witchsmart December 6th, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HMN (Post 6107690)
He seemed to have a premonition of sorts that there was a child like this in NY which included Credence, but I'd like more explanation on how that happened. Was it a prophecy?

I did wonder about this when he mentioned "seeing" the child. If it was a vision, it didn't reveal the identity of the child. Maybe it was a "sense," like when he (incorrectly) said he didn't sense a drop of magic in Credence and told him he was a Squib? Or maybe he just said it for Credence's benefit.

HMN December 6th, 2016 3:02 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead (Post 6107597)
I think it would be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's final duel, no? At this point, Ariana is already dead and seems likely to have been the catalyst for Grindelwald to search out another Obscurial.

Exactly. I seemed to have missed a page of posts when I replied! I totally agree with this assessment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6107691)
I did wonder about this when he mentioned "seeing" the child. If it was a vision, it didn't reveal the identity of the child. Maybe it was a "sense," like when he (incorrectly) said he didn't sense a drop of magic in Credence and told him he was a Squib? Or maybe he just said it for Credence's benefit.

Maybe all he saw was the girl and knew it was someone connected to her, but he didn't know who. I felt that he singled Credence out because of his age. He seemed to court him almost as a lover. I could see Credence not necessarily being gay, but desiring real love from someone, and seeking that from Graves/Grindlewald. And because of the age, Graves/Grindy didn't suspect him at all. I think the didn't sense a drop of magic comment was just to screw with his mind. To express that he was being used the whole time and the connection wasn't real.

witchsmart December 6th, 2016 3:21 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HMN (Post 6107692)
I felt that he singled Credence out because of his age. He seemed to court him almost as a lover. I could see Credence not necessarily being gay, but desiring real love from someone, and seeking that from Graves/Grindlewald.

To me it felt like he craved the love of a father/parent, given the cruelty of his home and how Grindelwald made him feel accepted and needed. Grindelwald definitely had some awkward face stroking moments, but personally I read it as more of a paternal "seduction" (which sounds very wrong but hopefully I'm expressing myself okay :eeep: ).

Liselle December 6th, 2016 9:25 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HMN (Post 6107690)
I think Grindlewald saw what happened to Ariana and sought out another like her to try and harness the power. That Ariana was the catalyst for his research into how powerful he could become if he found another. He seemed to have a premonition of sorts that there was a child like this in NY which included Credence, but I'd like more explanation on how that happened. Was it a prophecy? I don't think Grindlewald was using Dumbledore for his sister, I think when she died, he went running - to America - and it caused him to seek out more power in the same form with another child.

Another prophecy :rolleyes: just what we need! I'm joking of course but it does raise an interesting point, we know how well the Wizarding government in the UK kept hold of prophecies and it would makes sense that the American authorities would also have a means of recording it also.

How long had Grindelwald been masquerading as Graves? Was there ever really a Graves? It doesn't seem to have been polyjuice potion either :hmm: thats its own set of complex magic potentially that's not been seen before either.

I suppose the way Dumbledore has been portrayed - almost like a loveable rogue with a core of steal who's trying to atone for something in his past will always make me think well of him (Although we saw a lot of times he doesn't deserve it) but I am interested in how this relationship with Grindelwald will be played out.

Quote:

To me it felt like he craved the love of a father/parent, given the cruelty of his home and how Grindelwald made him feel accepted and needed. Grindelwald definitely had some awkward face stroking moments, but personally I read it as more of a paternal "seduction" (which sounds very wrong but hopefully I'm expressing myself okay ).
I know what you mean but it was 100% bordering on creepy. I am not sure myself in my own head if Grindelwald knew it was Credence all along and was trying to prompt him into a reaction or if he really was taken by surprise that it was Credence all along and not Modesty.

witchsmart December 7th, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107696)
How long had Grindelwald been masquerading as Graves? Was there ever really a Graves? It doesn't seem to have been polyjuice potion either :hmm: thats its own set of complex magic potentially that's not been seen before either.

I read in an interview (and the website kept giving me pop up spam so I don't want to link it here) that David Heyman said it was definitely polyjuice potion. So to me it feels like the movie franchise forgetting its own rules.

Another interesting statement by Mr. Heyman was that Credence would show up in future sequels, so I guess that final wisp of escaping smoke meant something after all. I wonder whether he will play a crucial role in the series or just show up for one more movie for the shock value? :hmm:

Liselle December 7th, 2016 4:51 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6107712)
Another interesting statement by Mr. Heyman was that Credence would show up in future sequels, so I guess that final wisp of escaping smoke meant something after all. I wonder whether he will play a crucial role in the series or just show up for one more movie for the shock value? :hmm:

I'm behind in following up on interviews but that is interesting, I'm sure it will be more than a flash back. Do we know off we'll see modesty again?

If it was polyjuice then there was definitely a Graves at some point in the past, how no one noticed after an extended period of time (Which I'm assuming it is based on how long Grindelwald Graves as I will call him was cultivating a relationship with Credence) that Graves wasn't himself is a bit concerning. What else is being hidden?

HMN December 7th, 2016 11:41 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107696)
Another prophecy :rolleyes: just what we need! I'm joking of course but it does raise an interesting point, we know how well the Wizarding government in the UK kept hold of prophecies and it would makes sense that the American authorities would also have a means of recording it also.

Agreed! I'm seeing it again tomorrow, so I'll pay more attention to that part. It's enough with the prophecies though!

Quote:

How long had Grindelwald been masquerading as Graves? Was there ever really a Graves? It doesn't seem to have been polyjuice potion either :hmm: thats its own set of complex magic potentially that's not been seen before either.
I had assumed that there was no Graves until Grindlewald created him. And then confunded everyone to get into his position of power. The papers in the beginning of the movie mention that Grindlewald was missing - so I wonder if they say what the timeframe is.


Quote:

I know what you mean but it was 100% bordering on creepy. I am not sure myself in my own head if Grindelwald knew it was Credence all along and was trying to prompt him into a reaction or if he really was taken by surprise that it was Credence all along and not Modesty.
TOTALLY creepy. It was a cross between a parent and a lover. Super gross.

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6107693)
To me it felt like he craved the love of a father/parent, given the cruelty of his home and how Grindelwald made him feel accepted and needed. Grindelwald definitely had some awkward face stroking moments, but personally I read it as more of a paternal "seduction" (which sounds very wrong but hopefully I'm expressing myself okay :eeep: ).

Ew parental seduction. That's totally what it was, because there was a sexual element to it.

willfitz December 13th, 2016 3:34 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HMN (Post 6107720)
Agreed! I'm seeing it again tomorrow, so I'll pay more attention to that part. It's enough with the prophecies though!

I had assumed that there was no Graves until Grindlewald created him. And then confunded everyone to get into his position of power. The papers in the beginning of the movie mention that Grindlewald was missing - so I wonder if they say what the timeframe is.

I thought that at first, too, but then, how long would it realistically take for a wizard to rise up through the ranks to be top dog like Graves was? Plus, given the size of the wizarding community and the fact that every witch or wizard from a given area just about goes to the same school, it's a really "small world" where I doubt that inventing a persona really works.

It must have been a Polyjuice Potion-esque disguise, though of course if it is Polyjuice Potion, it doesn't exactly jive with previous canon.

snapes_witch December 13th, 2016 6:26 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by willfitz (Post 6107786)
I thought that at first, too, but then, how long would it realistically take for a wizard to rise up through the ranks to be top dog like Graves was? Plus, given the size of the wizarding community and the fact that every witch or wizard from a given area just about goes to the same school, it's a really "small world" where I doubt that inventing a persona really works.

It must have been a Polyjuice Potion-esque disguise, though of course if it is Polyjuice Potion, it doesn't exactly jive with previous canon.

Polyjuice has been confirmed.

Liselle December 13th, 2016 10:44 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
I hate it when they mess with my theories :lol:

Quote:

polyjuice has been confirmed
I think I need to see it again as well and have a read of the screen play to get things more straight in my head.

It will be interesting to see how they fold in the world war into it was well. Kudos for bringing prohibition to life though - I still can't get over the Giggle water :rotfl: I did really like how integrated (or how integrated it seemed) that magical creatures were with wizarding folk in the speak easy. It seem to be more than Europe were doing at the same time.


I'm glad you're agreeing with Grindelwald's actions as Graves and how just wrong it was - completely wrong. It shows him in an awful light - will this come into play with the Dumbledores? Who knows.

Liselle December 16th, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
So I did find an interesting article from yesterday from the Leaky Cauldron .......there be spoilers!



Quote:


Following on from J.K. Rowling’s revelations concerning the houses of certain Fantastic Beasts characters, one fan on Twitter picked up on something concerning Queenie Goldstein, or more specifically, her abilities as a Legilimens:

@jk_rowling I was wondering, wouldn't Queenie have noticed the change in Graves' thinking even though he looked the same?


The thought process behind the tweet revolves around the fact that Queenie, a powerful and natural Legilimens, was never able to read Percival Graves’ mind (even accidentally) and pick up on the fact that he was really Grindelwald. However, Grindelwald was not your average Joe wizard, he was evidently a man of many talents, one of which Jo has finally confirmed:

Occlumency

As we remember from the Harry Potter series, Occlumency is a practice in which a wizard learns to close and protect their mind from Legilimency, preventing the Occlumens’ thoughts from being extracted. As Grindelwald has now been outed as a practitioner of the skill, it would explain why Queenie would never have been able to read his inner thoughts while he was disguised as Percival Graves.



Having said that, it wouldn’t be entirely crazy to think that Queenie would then find it suspicious that Graves was hiding his thoughts. However, let’s not forget that the real Percival Graves was a powerful wizard in his own right, especially since he was head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement prior to his kidnapping. To have gained such prestige in MACUSA, the man would’ve been of great skill, with Legilimency and Occlumency acting as tools of his trade. Putting this into context, one could easily assume that Queenie therefore wouldn’t have thought anything was untoward, that Graves was just a good Occlumens thanks to his job.

It has in fact been rumoured for some time that Grindelwald was an Occlumens, a suspicion that can be dated back to Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. While searching for the Elder Wand, Voldemort paid a visit to Grindelwald in his cell at Nuremgard. Even he, the presumably most powerful Legilimens in wizarding history, was unable to read Grindelwald’s mind, and thus he had to verbally ask his predecessor for information. Thanks to Jo, we now have another of the European dark wizard’s skills confirmed.


In terms of the significance of Grindelwald being an Occlumens, the reveal tells us a lot about his character and gives us some possible theories. A good place to start is, of course, comparing the man to Dumbledore. As we are told in wizarding world lore, Dumbledore is a Legilimens, which means that he can read minds (as a side note, although Queenie has the same skill, her skill is much more powerful as it can delve deeper into a person). As Legilimency and Occlumency go hand in hand as polar opposites of eachother, it seems that the cliché is a perfect form of symbolism for both Dumbledore and Grindelwald, if one thinks about it.


Like Legilimency itself, Dumbledore is analytical, a seeker of truth (not intending to quote Mary Lou Barebone) as he searches for the Hallows. In short, he always delves deeper into things, just as Legilimency analyses a person’s memories and digs deep into their inner being to seek truth. As for Grindelwald, he is a closed character, a secretive, strong-minded, stubborn individual who blocks out anything that will seek to destroy his ‘Greater Good’. This of course parallels him perfectly alongside Occlumency, which is practiced so that one can block people from getting inside your mind, from getting too close to you. Putting these two together, you get get a sense of perfect symbolism, with a clash of ideals that will surely stir up magnificent tension in the upcoming sequels.

However, if one wants to scratch that bit little bit lower below the surface, one may be able to understand exactly why Grindelwald chose to study Occlumency. Reverting back to Dumbledore’s Legilimency, it would make sense that Gellert would need to learn to block him out, especially since he had ideas for the Greater Good that Dumbledore would never agree to carry out. However, I think we can find an even better explanation than that.

Going back to what we said about opposites, isn’t it true that they…attract? It is well known that in the Harry Potter series, Grindelwald and Dumbledore shared a bond that was more than just friendship, with Dumbledore even being an openly gay man. However, the same cannot be said for Grindelwald. We as an audience do not even know his sexual stance as of yet, nor how he feels about Dumbledore due to his secrecy. That being said, is it possible that, on a more personal level, Grindelwald practices Occlumency…to hide his feelings about Albus? Is he, in effect, either in denial of or is trying to suppress his sexuality? Only time will tell!

I thought that this was really interesting, as it not only confirmed that
1) Graves was a real person
2)Grindelwald is an Occulemns - tying in as the author of the above article points out about the elder wand and the visit from Voldemort
But I love the whole opposites piece that thats pointed out. Like Queenie and Tina being near total opposites, the no maj world v maj world. Dumbledore and Grindelwald, the buzz of the city and excitement and the threat of the Obscurial. Actually the out of control nature of the obscurial and the almost complete control of an Occulumens.

Spirit December 31st, 2016 5:38 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6107691)
I did wonder about this when he mentioned "seeing" the child. If it was a vision, it didn't reveal the identity of the child. Maybe it was a "sense," like when he (incorrectly) said he didn't sense a drop of magic in Credence and told him he was a Squib? Or maybe he just said it for Credence's benefit.

I didn't see anyone already say this in this thread, but I might've missed it. A few days ago, JK Rowling wrote on twitter that Grindelwald was a Seer, but that he was lying to Credence about what he "saw."

The twitter question to JK Rowling was: "What did Graves-Grindelwald mean when he said: 'My vision showed only the child's immense power'? Is he a Seer or was he lying?"

JK Rowling's answer: "He is a Seer AND he was lying."

We don't know exactly what part Grindelwald was lying about and what was true though.

But I do find Grindelwald being a Seer interesting though. JK Rowling never fails to surprise.

Quote:

Polyjuice has been confirmed.
OH, and the Polyjuice Potion Grindelwald was using to transform into Graves? It wasn't Polyjuice Potion at all. JK Rowling explained that on the website jkrowling.com. If it had been, Revelio wouldn't have worked. Grindelwald was skilled in Transfiguration, so he used a spell that made him look identical to Graves without needing to keep drinking a potion every hour on the hour. I like this a lot better because that would've contradicted canon. It also is interesting because in the newspapers we saw at the beginning, one of them said that Albus Dumbledore was pushing for Un-Transfiguration classes at Hogwarts, so it was kind of like he knew Grindelwald would use Transfiguration at some point.

snapes_witch January 1st, 2017 1:14 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit (Post 6107926)

OH, and the Polyjuice Potion Grindelwald was using to transform into Graves? It wasn't Polyjuice Potion at all. JK Rowling explained that on the website jkrowling.com. If it had been, Revelio wouldn't have worked. Grindelwald was skilled in Transfiguration, so he used a spell that made him look identical to Graves without needing to keep drinking a potion every hour on the hour. I like this a lot better because that would've contradicted canon. It also is interesting because in the newspapers we saw at the beginning, one of them said that Albus Dumbledore was pushing for Un-Transfiguration classes at Hogwarts, so it was kind of like he knew Grindelwald would use Transfiguration at some point.

She needs to have a conversation with David Heyman. He seems to think it was polyjuice! :rolleyes:

Spirit January 1st, 2017 4:02 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by snapes_witch (Post 6107934)
She needs to have a conversation with David Heyman. He seems to think it was polyjuice! :rolleyes:

Maybe she was okay with Polyjuice first, but then she changed her mind to make it fit canon better... Lol!

snapes_witch January 1st, 2017 8:56 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit (Post 6107936)
Maybe she was okay with Polyjuice first, but then she changed her mind to make it fit canon better... Lol!

Who knows!:huh:

Liselle January 1st, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit (Post 6107936)
Maybe she was okay with Polyjuice first, but then she changed her mind to make it fit canon better... Lol!

I like things being neat and clean :lol:

witchsmart January 2nd, 2017 7:18 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit (Post 6107926)
I didn't see anyone already say this in this thread, but I might've missed it. A few days ago, JK Rowling wrote on twitter that Grindelwald was a Seer, but that he was lying to Credence about what he "saw."

The twitter question to JK Rowling was: "What did Graves-Grindelwald mean when he said: 'My vision showed only the child's immense power'? Is he a Seer or was he lying?"

JK Rowling's answer: "He is a Seer AND he was lying."

We don't know exactly what part Grindelwald was lying about and what was true though.

But I do find Grindelwald being a Seer interesting though. JK Rowling never fails to surprise.

A powerful Occlumens and a Seer? No one it took Albus Dumbledore to bring this guy down. I know it's far in the future, but I hope the movies do that epic battle justice.

I do wonder what he was lying about, because he did genuinely seem to think Mercy was the Obscurial. If he knew Credence was the Obscurial all along, he did a poor job of harnessing his energy for someone who appears to be so strategic. He had Credence's support for a long time, he would have gone with him willingly before Grindelwald rejected him.

Quote:

She needs to have a conversation with David Heyman. He seems to think it was polyjuice!
Exactly. :lol: I suppose it's not crucial to the overall plot, but for nitpickers and dissectors like us, it's an important distinction!

Spirit January 5th, 2017 4:59 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6107969)
A powerful Occlumens and a Seer? No one it took Albus Dumbledore to bring this guy down. I know it's far in the future, but I hope the movies do that epic battle justice.

I do wonder what he was lying about, because he did genuinely seem to think Mercy was the Obscurial. If he knew Credence was the Obscurial all along, he did a poor job of harnessing his energy for someone who appears to be so strategic. He had Credence's support for a long time, he would have gone with him willingly before Grindelwald rejected him.

Occlumens, Seer, master of the Elder Wand... can take on two dozen Aurors with a wand that isn't even his... I can understand how he came to be a huge problem. I just have to wonder how being a Seer impacted things with Dumbledore way back when. I have a bad feeling he told a lot of lies to teenage Albus about his "visions."

I don't think Grindelwald knew Credence was the Obscurial. I think he truly did think it was Modesty (not Mercy, but close :) ). I think he completely did think Credence was a nothing - once he thought Credence was no longer useful, he told him goodbye. But then he realized he told him goodbye way too fast, and he paid for it. I don't think he knew that.

So then I have to look back at what Grindelwald did tell Credence he saw. The official lines from the script is:

Graves: My vision showed only the child's immense power. He or she is no older than ten, and I saw this child in close proximity to your mother - she I saw so plainly.
Credence: That could be any one of hundreds.
Graves: There is something else. Something I haven't told you. I saw you beside me in New York. You're the one that gains this child's trust. You are the key - I saw this. You want to join the Wizarding world. I want those things too, Credence. I want them for you. So find the child. Find the child and we'll all be free.

I know the twitter user only said, "'My vision showed only the child's immense power'?" But I think that part Grindelwald said was 100% true. I think JK Rowling was referring to the NEXT part, where Grindelwald elaborates on his vision.

- "I saw you beside me in New York." Hmm. Maybe.
- "You're the one that gains this child's trust." Maybe.
- "You are the key - I saw this." Maybe. Starting to sound doubtful.
- "You want to join the Wizarding world. I want those things too, Credence. I want them for you." That's where I call the lie. Grindelwald doesn't really care about Credence; he only wants to use him to find the Obsurcial and then dump him once he's no longer useful. And Grindelwald knows darn well that a Muggle or a Squib cannot ever be taught.

"You're unteachable. I'm done with you," was how Grindelwald had said it when he was telling Credence goodbye. I think that's what Grindelwald was prepared to say even if Credence had led him to the Obscurial, because that was all he wanted from Credence. I think he never suspected Credence as having any kind of magical power, so he would've known that Credence was, at best, just a plain Squib. A plain Muggle or Squib that would never join the Wizarding world, ever.

I'm pretty certain it's that part of the "vision" that is the lie.

Liselle January 7th, 2017 10:45 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Actually, we don't know how long Graves/Grindelwald was cultivating Credence.....maybe it was over and extended period of time, the fact that we know he plays the waiting game and there may not have been a younger adopted child around Credence at the time? I'm just throwing it out there.

That and i really really need to buy the screenplay of fantastic beasts!

Spirit January 10th, 2017 4:15 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6108027)
Actually, we don't know how long Graves/Grindelwald was cultivating Credence.....maybe it was over and extended period of time, the fact that we know he plays the waiting game and there may not have been a younger adopted child around Credence at the time? I'm just throwing it out there.

That and i really really need to buy the screenplay of fantastic beasts!

You should -- it's excellent! I read it all in almost one sitting while waiting for my car to get done. Best time at the car mechanic ever.

We know how long Grindelwald was cultivating Credence from the script because we know how long Grindelwald was there in New York City (just HOURS before Newt arrived at port). Somebody else recently pointed it out online; I can't believe I didn't catch it when I read it the first time. Grindelwald was Graves for an extremely short amount of time. We don't know what the Graves/Credence thing was though. It seems to me like they weren't strangers, so I think Graves knew him somehow, but we don't know what their dynamic was.

It's actually surprising that Grindelwald was only there a few hours before Newt was. It seemed like he had been doing it for a long time, but the script clearly says:

Quote:

Scene 1 -- EXT. Somewhere in Europe - 1926 - Night
A large, isolated, derelict chateau emerges from the darkness. We focus on a cobbled square outside the building, shrouded in mist, eerie, silent.

Five Aurors stand, wands aloft, tentative as they edge toward the chateau. A sudden explosion of pure white light sends them flying.

We whip around to find their bodies scattered, lying motionless at the entrance to a large parkland. A figure (Grindelwald) enters the frame, his back to the camera; ignoring the bodies, he stares out into the night sky as we pan up toward the moon.

MONTAGE

We see various magical newspaper headlines from 1926 relating to Grindwald's attacks all over the world: Grindelwald strikes again in Europe, Hogwarts School Increases Security, Anti-Wizard Feelings on the Rise, Where Is Grindelwald?, Is Anyone Safe?

TRANSITION TO:

Scene 2 -- EXT. Ship Gliding Into New York - Next Morning

A bright, clear New York day. Seagulls swoop overhead.
Bold/underline mine. That's Newt coming the US. The next morning. Grindelwald escaped only hours before. He was impersonating Graves for a short time.

TWZRD January 21st, 2017 9:50 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HMN (Post 6107692)
I think the didn't sense a drop of magic comment was just to screw with his mind. To express that he was being used the whole time and the connection wasn't real.

… And perhaps a thing said in frustration that wasn't deeply thought out.
I did assume Grindy gave Credence the wand, and that he stayed with that awful woman because he was working for Grindy/Graves. But to be called Credence implies that she's had him from pretty young, so that is where Graves found him. If there was a sort of war with Grindy and followers like the Deatheater wars, then we ought to have orphaned wizards about.

witchsmart January 22nd, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit (Post 6108072)
Bold/underline mine. That's Newt coming the US. The next morning. Grindelwald escaped only hours before. He was impersonating Graves for a short time.

I watched the opening newspaper montage again (Some of the titles are really great, personally I want to know what the "Ginger Bronx Witch" one was about) and there seems to be so many different headlines for only a few hours. But reading over the scene you provided that does seem like the case. Still, Grindelwald would have had to have worked incredibly fast to get everything set up in just a few hours. Do we know where he escaped from? They seem to know he's in America, perhaps he was being held in a prison there?

Is it definitely that Grindelwald is Graves for the entirety of the movie? Do we ever see the real Graves, perhaps earlier on, and then Grindelwald takes over partway through?

Spirit January 23rd, 2017 4:23 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6108209)
I watched the opening newspaper montage again (Some of the titles are really great, personally I want to know what the "Ginger Bronx Witch" one was about) and there seems to be so many different headlines for only a few hours. But reading over the scene you provided that does seem like the case. Still, Grindelwald would have had to have worked incredibly fast to get everything set up in just a few hours. Do we know where he escaped from? They seem to know he's in America, perhaps he was being held in a prison there?

There's some pictures of the newspapers on Tumblr (username wizardingworlddaily) where you can actually zoom in on the pages. There's a lot of good things in those headlines, especially the Daily Prophet's one. Harry's paternal grandfather is actually on the front page, Fleamont Potter.

But we don't know exactly where Grindelwald was escaping from, but we know it wasn't from the United States. The script says his breakout happened "somewhere in Europe," so it definitely wasn't near or within the USA. I don't think it was Britain either though, since JK Rowling always said Grindelwald avoided Great Britain because of Dumbledore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6108209)
Is it definitely that Grindelwald is Graves for the entirety of the movie? Do we ever see the real Graves, perhaps earlier on, and then Grindelwald takes over partway through?

I think it's impossible for us to know. It certainly seems like Grindelwald was impersonating Graves the entire time. But the fact he was able to escape from somewhere in Europe and actually go to work the next morning as Graves, a Head Auror of MACUSA, is a little difficult to imagine to me. He seemed comfortable as Graves. He knew people's names, knew their backgrounds, etc. (though he did hesitate/fumble on Abernathy's name once). I honestly have to wonder if Graves is a supporter of Grindelwald's. I wonder if Graves knew Grindelwald beforehand, and when Grindelwald wanted to take on his identity, Graves was willing to comply and even helped him out with names and info. It just seemed like Grindelwald knew what he was doing far too well for this whole swap to be completely random and unplanned....

And, if Graves is a supporter and friend of Grindelwald's, then Grindelwald may have impersonated Graves on more than just one occasion, perhaps with or without the knowledge of Graves. Grindelwald seemed to really know Credence. Maybe he's transformed into Graves to speak with Credence before.

witchsmart January 24th, 2017 3:07 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit (Post 6108216)
And, if Graves is a supporter and friend of Grindelwald's, then Grindelwald may have impersonated Graves on more than just one occasion, perhaps with or without the knowledge of Graves. Grindelwald seemed to really know Credence. Maybe he's transformed into Graves to speak with Credence before.

Exactly. :agree: Credence had been raised to fear the consequences of magic, there is no way Grindelwald could have established that kind of trust and devotion in just a few hours. I'd say Graves was an alternate persona, given that that he used transfiguration to disguise himself, only that doesn't work with him being in prison, people who notice if a high Ministry official went missing. There definitely needed to be some prior plan in place, especially since Grindelwald is not from America, and would need to research how the American wizarding government works in order to pose as a high official.

Jo's usually careful about the details, so maybe there is more to this than we are seeing and it's not just an inconsistency.


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