Which Tom Riddle do you prefer?

[jan74]

Originally Posted by mexicant

Probably due to his age - he's 31 now. But I think he could still play the part. And as shallow as it is for me to say this, hotness kind of should be a factor; Tom Riddle was supposed to be extremely handsome and winsome and kind of genial even. People just did not see the creepy at all, no matter what he was doing or saying. He tells Harry that Dumbledore was the only one who was ever suspicious of him and mentions how he was always able to charm anyone he needed to. I just did not see that in Dillane at all. He was smarmy. Not at all how I picture a young charismatic Tom Riddle.

Well, we all have different images of Tom Riddle, but I'm quite puzzled that so many seems to think he always should appear charming. Was Riddle supposed to be charming when he controlled the doings of fellow students at Hogwarts? Was Riddle's popularity with fellow Slytherin students, which comprised most or all of the students present at the meeting with Slughorn, based mainly on the fact that he was typically charming?
Had he not already at this time long ago charmed Slughorn enough, so he wouldn't need to use a lot of charm to accomplish what he needed? Wasn't Riddle's relation to Slughorn closer than it was with other teachers, although he was popular with everyone (except Dumbledore)? And isn't Dillane, by focusing on Slughorn's difference from the other teachers, also trying to humour him, which is a kind of charm in its way?

When you consider the memories about Tom Riddle from HBP (the book), do they not focus rather on situations where Riddle shows his true self (knowingly or unknowingly), rather than about Riddle as the regular charmer? And wouldn't it be particularly so in the situation when he is talking about the Horcruxes, where it's quite clear in the book, that Slughorn was unnerved/uneasy several times?

I would also say that Dillane shows a kind of charm, a mysterious charm and the charm of someone who's extremely confident.

Note that I do not dislike Coulson, I think he did a good job showing certain aspects of Tom Riddle, but Dillane made a greater impression on me and had a better general control of his performance, especially how he used his voice.

[mexicant]

Originally Posted by jan74

Well, we all have different images of Tom Riddle, but I'm quite puzzled that so many seems to think he always should appear charming. Was Riddle supposed to be charming when he controlled the doings of fellow students at Hogwarts? Was Riddle's popularity with fellow Slytherin students, which comprised most or all of the students present at the meeting with Slughorn, based mainly on the fact that he was typically charming?

Actually, nowhere in the book does it state this; we know he controlled some kids at the orphanage but I don't recall this happening at school.

HBP US paperback, pg. 369 Harry looked around as Dumbledore appeared beside him and saw that they were standing in Slughorn's office. Half a dozen boys were sitting around Slughorn, all on harder or lower seats than his, and all in their mid-teens. Harry recognized Voldemort at once. His was the most handsome face and he looked the most relaxed of all the boys.

I will note that Slughorn does mention by name Lestrange and Avery, and we can likely deduce them as being in Slytherin. I've always thought he was looked up to by all the students for not only his brilliance but his seemingly easy camaraderie with teachers as well.

As far as why I think he is always charming, well, that comes from CoS:

CoS US paperback pg.310 "If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed."

CoS US paperback pgs. 311-312 "It was my word against Hagrid's, Harry. Well, you can imagine how it looked to old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless but so brave, school prefect, model student...on the other ahnd, big, blundering Hagrid, in trouble every other week, trying to raise werewolf cubs under his bed, sneaking off to the Forbidden Forest to wrestle trolls...but I admit, even I was surprised how well the plan worked. ... Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent. He persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train him as gamekeeper. Yes, I think Dumbledore might have guessed...Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other teachers did..."

We're given to believe from the books that he practically had everyone but Dumbledore eating out of the palm of his hand during his school years and I just don't get that sort of feeling from Dillane's performance whereas I can believe it from Coulsen's.

Originally Posted by jan74

Had he not already at this time long ago charmed Slughorn enough, so he wouldn't need to use a lot of charm to accomplish what he needed? Wasn't Riddle's relation to Slughorn closer than it was with other teachers, although he was popular with everyone (except Dumbledore)? And isn't Dillane, by focusing on Slughorn's difference from the other teachers, also trying to humour him, which is a kind of charm in its way?

No, I don't think he had charmed Slughorn enough to just sort of get by on his previous years of "work" - Harry describes Tom's manner of asking very well.

HBP US paperback pgs. 496-497 It was very well done, Harry thought, the hesitancy, the casual tone, the careful flattery, none of it overdone. He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle information out of reluctant people to not recognize a master at work. He could tell that Riddle wanted the information very, very much; perhaps had been working toward this moment for weeks.

I just wasn't able to really feel that from Dillane's performance. Mostly, I found him rather creepy.

Originally Posted by jan74

When you consider the memories about Tom Riddle from HBP (the book), do they not focus rather on situations where Riddle shows his true self (knowingly or unknowingly), rather than about Riddle as the regular charmer? And wouldn't it be particularly so in the situation when he is talking about the Horcruxes, where it's quite clear in the book, that Slughorn was unnerved/uneasy several times?

In every memory we see of Tom Riddle where he wants or needs something from someone, he is perfectly charming. When he visited his uncle, he had no reason to be. And Slughorn only begins to grow uncomfortable with the Horcrux conversation when Tom starts asking about how to split your soul and whether or not seven would be an ideal number for such a venture. The book does state that he is troubled and seems to see Tom clearly for the first time.

Originally Posted by jan74

I would also say that Dillane shows a kind of charm, a mysterious charm and the charm of someone who's extremely confident.

I guess we would just chalk this up to a difference in opinion, then. I was only thinking about how uncomfortable I would be around Dillane, from the beginning of his scene.

[jan74]

Thanks, those were nice answers!

Originally Posted by mexicant

Actually, nowhere in the book does it state this; we know he controlled some kids at the orphanage but I don't recall this happening at school.

When Harry and Dumbledore talks about Riddle's past in HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Riddle gathered around him a group of other students. The group was rigidly controlled by Riddle and their years at school marked by many nasty incidents, but their wrongdoings were never traced to them (which I believe was not mainly due to charm).



I will note that Slughorn does mention by name Lestrange and Avery, and we can likely deduce them as being in Slytherin. I've always thought he was looked up to by all the students for not only his brilliance but his seemingly easy camaraderie with teachers as well.

Well, both his brilliance and his easy camaraderie with teachers would be reasons to look up to him. But couldn't it, for a smaller group, also be likely that they were impressed by how he traced his ancestry to Slytherin? Remember that several of these kids would join him as Death Eathers later in life - I don't think this willingness and the beliefs they held came right out of the blue, it was formed during school years.

As far as why I think he is always charming, well, that comes from CoS:


I understand. But there's a big difference between being charismatic or charming in the way for instance Barack Obama can be, just to make a real life example, and to be able to use charm when you need it. I think Riddle knew how to be charming when he needed to, when other kinds of behaviour were needed, he used them instead. Riddle saw other people's weaknesses/personal traits and knew how to exploit them, and knew how to use charm to manipulate, which is not the same as being charming.


We're given to believe from the books that he practically had everyone but Dumbledore eating out of the palm of his hand during his school years and I just don't get that sort of feeling from Dillane's performance whereas I can believe it from Coulsen's.

I understand that, because Dillane is not supposed to appear charming for most of this scene.

No, I don't think he had charmed Slughorn enough to just sort of get by on his previous years of "work" - Harry describes Tom's manner of asking very well.

I just wasn't able to really feel that from Dillane's performance. Mostly, I found him rather creepy.

In every memory we see of Tom Riddle where he wants or needs something from someone, he is perfectly charming. When he visited his uncle, he had no reason to be. And Slughorn only begins to grow uncomfortable with the Horcrux conversation when Tom starts asking about how to split your soul and whether or not seven would be an ideal number for such a venture. The book does state that he is troubled and seems to see Tom clearly for the first time.

I guess we would just chalk this up to a difference in opinion, then. I was only thinking about how uncomfortable I would be around Dillane, from the beginning of his scene.

[MC2456]

Well, they could age Brad Pitt to an 80 year old man. Special effects these days can do wonders. I'm sure they can reduce Coulson's age-he does seem pretty boyish for a 31 year old man to begin with. In a good way, of course.

I didn't mean to sound fan-girly in my first post, but I guess sleep deprivation can do that to you. Coulson's portrayal of the young Tom Riddle was everything I'd imagined him to be-cool, collected, yet extremely charming. Dillane's Tom Riddle didn't do it for me, he was more sneaky and haughty. (And I felt he had too much hair-cream, but let's not get to that ) He was kind of pushy with Slughorn, more direct and forthright. And the scene with the Slug Club, he didn't really exude the charisma Riddle was supposed to have. He basically sat there, smirking in a weird, creepy way which would kind of put off people, if you know what I mean.

[jan74]

Well, I see now that I made a mess out of the quote system in response to Mexicant and also I had to rush off for work, so I couldn't complete the response.

Mexicant wrote:
CoS US paperback pgs. 311-312"It was my word against Hagrid's, Harry. Well, you can imagine how it looked to old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless but so brave, school prefect, model student...on the other ahnd, big, blundering Hagrid, in trouble every other week, trying to raise werewolf cubs under his bed, sneaking off to the Forbidden Forest to wrestle trolls...but I admit, even I was surprised how well the plan worked. ... Only the Transfiguration teacher, Dumbledore, seemed to think Hagrid was innocent. He persuaded Dippet to keep Hagrid and train him as gamekeeper. Yes, I think Dumbledore might have guessed...Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other teachers did..."

We're given to believe from the books that he practically had everyone but Dumbledore eating out of the palm of his hand during his school years and I just don't get that sort of feeling from Dillane's performance whereas I can believe it from Coulsen's.

Well, I think this example from CoS (as well as the examples from HBP about the young Gaunt and Hebzibah's house elf who are falsely sentenced for Riddle's crimes) really shows that many teachers and authority figures in the wizarding world jumped to easy conclusions. The person with the lowest social standing or worst track record was the one they were ready to believe would commit a crime. This is a fairly common phenomenon. With Dippet I also believe you can talk about denial, he didn't want to believe anything wrong about Tom Riddle because he usually was polite, well-spoken and very talented. Especially teachers would be susceptible to befascinated by Tom Riddle's magical talent, even more considering that he was raised in an orphanage.

Mexicant wrote:
HBP US paperback pgs. 496-497It was very well done, Harry thought, the hesitancy, the casual tone, the careful flattery, none of it overdone. He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle information out of reluctant people to not recognize a master at work. He could tell that Riddle wanted the information very, very much; perhaps had been working toward this moment for weeks.

I just wasn't able to really feel that from Dillane's performance. Mostly, I found him rather creepy.

In every memory we see of Tom Riddle where he wants or needs something from someone, he is perfectly charming. When he visited his uncle, he had no reason to be. And Slughorn only begins to grow uncomfortable with the Horcrux conversation when Tom starts asking about how to split your soul and whether or not seven would be an ideal number for such a venture. The book does state that he is troubled and seems to see Tom clearly for the first time.

In the memory with Hepzibah, the old woman, we see a Tom Riddle who is producing mechanical smiles and flatters her with flowers. It doesn't matter that his charm is forced, because she is besotted with him already. What I'm trying to say again that Tom Riddle knew how to play the charmer, to manipulate people.

it's clear that Slughorn feels uneasy about talking about this subject also in the book - he knows it's not a project for schoolwork, but tries to rationalize why Riddle would ask the question ("it's natural for wizards of a certain calibre.. etc).

I don't disagree that the scene in the film was angled differently than the book, there's no casual tone or hesitancy at the start. What I see, though, is a young man who is very controlled and studious, who knows how to make a good performance with his moves, his pauses, who knows how to mask his emotions when he needs to. This is a very important part of Riddle's personality as I see it. I agree that parts of his scenes were chilling and sinister (also due to the cinematography) and this was something I liked very much, but it didn't lead me to believe that he couldn't act differently in other scenes. I think it's important to show, as also the youngest actor Hero F-Tiffin did, that Riddle had many different faces.

[PotionA]

Originally Posted by MC2456

He was kind of pushy with Slughorn, more direct and forthright. And the scene with the Slug Club, he didn't really exude the charisma Riddle was supposed to have. He basically sat there, smirking in a weird, creepy way which would kind of put off people, if you know what I mean.

I agree with you to a certain point. Whilst Coulson's performance in the second film was perfect to display Riddle's mania, the second actor to play the character was pretty good to portray Riddle's cool manner. The actor's delivery and facial expressions did seem sneaky, but Riddle's over-the-top charming demeanor, which was at first established by Dumbledore to make readers understand that Voldemort was a deceitful individual, was not developed in the movie. He was shown to be cunning and manipulative in the sixth film and I think that's what the film makers were targeting at. The second actor did a great job in showing that characteristic IMO. Yes we was calm, too calm I thought, not to mention that his expressions proved that he had a motive for his asking uncomfortable questions, which could only lead to trouble. That was what was so compelling about it. The film didn't need Riddle to be the charming faker that he was. To the average movie-goer, he is the kid who is about to become evil, and the actor's performance was consistent with that notion.