Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

She was killed because of Dumbledore's neglect and that neglect was because Dumbledore was concentrating on creating a blue print for world domination.

The topic of the argument has nothing to do with the reason she died though. It was the recklessness displayed by the people arguing when a stray spell hit her. There is no connection between Grindelwald/Dumbledore's plans and Ariana's death.

Then Dumbledore was really, really foolish wasn't he? He really thought Snape should rather die at Voldemort's hands by asking for Harry and James' lives, rather than behaving in such a way Voldemort would not get suspicious, and then come to Dumbledore to warn him? Are you saying that Dumbledore felt that it did not matter if he did not know that Voldemort had chosen the Potters and that one of the 3 friends was a traitor through Snape; he would rather Snape die asking Voldemort not only for Lily's life but also for Harry and James'? Then Dumbledore was indeed a dunderhead IMO.
Do you really think Dumbledore would have rather done without the information? That he would have wanted Snape to ask for all the 3 Potter' lives? If you do, I totally disagree.

The point I made was that Dumbledore was disgusted that Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily in exchange for the son. What Dumbledore wanted to hear from Snape was:

"I wouldn't ask Voldemort to spare only Lily, she would not be happy if she alone survived and it would not have been the right way for me to try to undo the damage I have done."

But Snape didn't say that. He said he tried to do the exhange and that is what disgusted Dumbledore - rightly so in my opinion. All of this was how Dumbledore felt - but to help Snape also, imo.

And I think Dumbledore was way out of order when he spoke those words on the Hill.

I think it was Dumbledore's first attempt at setting Snape straight and trying to help him see right from wrong - in a moral sense.

Why are Snape's actions disgusting? I thought Snape's actions were very intelligent. He asked only what he could of Voldemort, but he came to Dumbledore and placed in his hands the safety of the Potters. What was so disgusting about it?

I think Dumbledore felt that Snape shouldn't have asked Voldemort anything at all (and I agree). Snape asking Voldemort did not serve to undo what he'd done (delivering the prophecy and placing a family in danger). All he did was add to his sins by going to Voldemort, plea bargaining with a dark lord in a dark manner, imo, to keep one person safe of the three that were in danger. And Snape's motive for doing that is questionable too, in terms of what he hoped to get out of it, imo.

Kingsley's personal motive was to act in accordance with the job he held as an Auror. To justify that job he needed to do certain things, act as the WW's policeman and fight against those who were causing great trouble inside it.

I meant motives given in the books. We don't know Kingsleys motive. I appreciate your belief that everyone has some personal motive, but I disagree and I think people like Kingsley were doing it simply because it was the right thing to do. This I think is proven when the Ministry came under the control of Voldemort. Kingsley didn't just keep "doing his job as an Auror" - because he would have been out rounding up muggleborns like the other Aurors and bringing them for questioning and/or extermination. So his motivation went beyond merely doing his job. Plus, he wouldn't have had a reason to join the Order if he was only concerned about helping the WW due to being an Auror.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

The topic of the argument has nothing to do with the reason she died though. It was the recklessness displayed by the people arguing when a stray spell hit her. There is no connection between Grindelwald/Dumbledore's plans and Ariana's death.

On the contrary I feel it has everything to do with why she died. Why would they have need to have an argument in the first place? I would agree with you if the argument was not connected to Dumbledore and Grindelwald's plans or their closeness or Aberforth's resentment of that closeness which he felt was what made Albus neglect his duties and important ones such as Ariana. But the argument they had was very much because of Dumbledore's friendship with Grindelwald; his association with Grindelwald, which was what led to the fight and ultimately Ariana's death.

The point I made was that Dumbledore was disgusted that Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily in exchange for the son. What Dumbledore wanted to hear from Snape was:

"I wouldn't ask Voldemort to spare only Lily, she would not be happy if she alone survived and it would not have been the right way for me to try to undo the damage I have done."

So you are saying that Snape should not have done what he could to save at least one soul from Voldemort. He should have, when he knew that he could try to plead for Lily's life from Voldemort without getting killed himself, refrained from that and simply kept silent?

I disagree. Snape did the right thing and the wise thing. He asked for the life of Lily, for that's the only life he could he ask of Voldemort, and then came to Dumbledore and warned him as well.

But Snape didn't say that. He said he tried to do the exhange and that is what disgusted Dumbledore - rightly so in my opinion. All of this was how Dumbledore felt - but to help Snape also, imo.

And your point would be valid if Snape did not come to Dumbledore and if Dumbledore knew after the Potters deaths that Snape had exchanged Lily's life for Harry and James'. But that clearly was not the case. Snape came well in time to warn Dumbledore. By that action, his so called exchange with Voldemort really does not count.

It is like a man pleading with a gang leader for the life of a woman he loves, who is happily married and has a little baby. Knowing that this gangster has an agenda for the baby and knowing that he knows that this man hates the father because he loves the woman, this man cannot ask in all seriousness for their lives and so he agrees to whatever twisted thing the gangster says.

Then this poor man comes running to the FBI and tells them everything, even knowing that he could be punished with life for being a part of that gangster.

By this act, he has placed in the hands of the FBI the safety of the family. Now how are his actions wrong.

I can't call them selfish or disgusting. I would call them extraordinarily clever in the face of great danger.

Snape thought Dumbledore was the FBI and CIA all rolled into one. He came running to tell him and he told the unvarnished truth. He could have easily lied about asking Voldemort only for Lily's life and he could have simply warned Dumbledore of the danger. He could have just sent an owl.

Dumbledore was always going to do the same thing in any of these scenarios. Yet, Snape came there, not caring if he would be placed in Azkaban, not caring if Dumbledore would kill him, not caring what Dumbledore thought of him. He did not hide the truth to make himself look better and and he offered no excuses for his actions. He only pleaded as he probably did with Voldemort too, to save Lily and her family.

How are his actions wrong or disgusting as Dumbledore felt is beyond me, frankly.

I think it was Dumbledore's first attempt at setting Snape straight and trying to help him see right from wrong - in a moral sense.

IMO Snape was already on the straight when he decided to come to Dumbledore.

I think Dumbledore felt that Snape shouldn't have asked Voldemort anything at all (and I agree). Snape asking Voldemort did not serve to undo what he'd done (delivering the prophecy and placing a family in danger). All he did was add to his sins by going to Voldemort, plea bargaining with a dark lord in a dark manner, imo, to keep one person safe of the three that were in danger. And Snape's motive for doing that is questionable too, in terms of what he hoped to get out of it, imo.

That was mighty foolish of him then IMO.

I would like to ask a question here. I do believe Dumbledore was so upset because he thought of himself at that time more than Snape. But if you believe Dumbledore did not like Snape asking only for the life of Lily, then I ask why? Why did not Dumbledore want Snape to try and save the lives of as many people as he could? What was the immorality there that was disgusting?

I meant motives given in the books. We don't know Kingsleys motive. I appreciate your belief that everyone has some personal motive, but I disagree and I think people like Kingsley were doing it simply because it was the right thing to do.

It is my firm belief that every action of our has some motive behind it, which is tied to our personal beliefs. It may be conscious or not, but in my opinion it's there.

This I think is proven when the Ministry came under the control of Voldemort. Kingsley didn't just keep "doing his job as an Auror" - because he would have been out rounding up muggleborns like the other Aurors and bringing them for questioning and/or extermination. So his motivation went beyond merely doing his job. Plus, he wouldn't have had a reason to join the Order if he was only concerned about helping the WW due to being an Auror.

Because he had a personal belief that was quite contrary to working for Voldemort. He was content to work as an Auror in the Ministry before Voldemort; he was against working for Voldemort and where his belief clashed with his job, his personal belief took over and his actions after ward was in tune to his personal beliefs IMO.

Originally Posted by eliza101

Arriana could only be called a casualty of DD and Grindelwald's plans if her death actually was a part of those plans. Her death was an accident. It was an accident that was caused by Alberforth arguing with his brother and Grindelwald about Albus' very real neglect of his sister. They were arguing over the neglect, not world domination plans. I think that to Alberforth his sister was being neglected because Albus was caught up in pie in the sky daydreams. Dangerous daydreams though.

Have answered in WWB's post.

I agree with this. He neither knew or cared who would die.

No. I said he did not know if it would off Lily. Dumbledore did not know that the fight would off Ariana. He was quite content to let others be offed all for the Greater Good.

I think you misunderstood me here. What I was saying was that Snape picked himself up every time he failed himself, and then he tried again. It was not easy and it took hard effort. I admire him so much for fighting so hard against his own inclinations. If Snape found it easy-peasy to leave his old life behind and always to do the right thing, then he would not be worthy of admiration, IMO.

Yes, I did misunderstand and I am sorry. But I still disagree.

I think Snape never failed in the manner which you say he did (in previous posts). Once he turned to the Light, I think it was a continuous process of evolving, until he died.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

On the contrary I feel it has everything to do with why she died. Why would they have need to have an argument in the first place? I would agree with you if the argument was not connected to Dumbledore and Grindelwald's plans or their closeness or Aberforth's resentment of that closeness which he felt was what made Albus neglect his duties and important ones such as Ariana. But the argument they had was very much because of Dumbledore's friendship with Grindelwald; his association with Grindelwald, which was what led to the fight and ultimately Ariana's death.

So you are saying that Snape should not have done what he could to save at least one soul from Voldemort. He should have, when he knew that he could try to plead for Lily's life from Voldemort without getting killed himself, refrained from that and simply kept silent?

I disagree. Snape did the right thing and the wise thing. He asked for the life of Lily, for that's the only life he could he ask of Voldemort, and then came to Dumbledore and warned him as well.

And your point would be valid if Snape did not come to Dumbledore and if Dumbledore knew after the Potters deaths that Snape had exchanged Lily's life for Harry and James'. But that clearly was not the case. Snape came well in time to warn Dumbledore. By that action, his so called exchange with Voldemort really does not count.

It is like a man pleading with a gang leader for the life of a woman he loves, who is happily married and has a little baby. Knowing that this gangster has an agenda for the baby and knowing that he knows that this man hates the father because he loves the woman, this man cannot ask in all seriousness for their lives and so he agrees to whatever twisted thing the gangster says.

Then this poor man comes running to the FBI and tells them everything, even knowing that he could be punished with life for being a part of that gangster.

By this act, he has placed in the hands of the FBI the safety of the family. Now how are his actions wrong.

I can't call them selfish or disgusting. I would call them extraordinarily clever in the face of great danger.

Snape thought Dumbledore was the FBI and CIA all rolled into one. He came running to tell him and he told the unvarnished truth. He could have easily lied about asking Voldemort only for Lily's life and he could have simply warned Dumbledore of the danger. He could have just sent an owl.

Dumbledore was always going to do the same thing in any of these scenarios. Yet, Snape came there, not caring if he would be placed in Azkaban, not caring if Dumbledore would kill him, not caring what Dumbledore thought of him. He did not hide the truth to make himself look better and and he offered no excuses for his actions. He only pleaded as he probably did with Voldemort too, to save Lily and her family.

How are his actions wrong or disgusting as Dumbledore felt is beyond me, frankly.

IMO Snape was already on the straight when he decided to come to Dumbledore.

That was mighty foolish of him then IMO.

I would like to ask a question here. I do believe Dumbledore was so upset because he thought of himself at that time more than Snape. But if you believe Dumbledore did not like Snape asking only for the life of Lily, then I ask why? Why did not Dumbledore want Snape to try and save the lives of as many people as he could? What was the immorality there that was disgusting?

No. I said he did not know if it would off Lily. Dumbledore did not know that the fight would off Ariana. He was quite content to let others be offed all for the Greater Good.

Yes, I did misunderstand and I am sorry. But I still disagree.

I think Snape never failed in the manner which you say he did (in previous posts). Once he turned to the Light, I think it was a continuous process of evolving, until he died.

I have to agree with WWB. IMO Snape was not interested in saving any lives out of altruistic feelings. He wanted to save Lily's life so that he could have her to himself, without the baggage of a husband and baby preferably. It isn't nice and the thought of it quite rightly disgusted DD. To me, it can't be dressed up. The bedrock of Snape's motivations in going to DD and LV was so that Lily would live and somehow she would be grateful enough to him that she would forget the deaths of her family and be his forever grateful little woman I suppose. It isn't a nice thought, but then Snape at this time was not a particularly nice person in my eyes.

As to the death of Arrianna, there is a whole thread devoted to it on this forum and an admittedly quick glance at it reveals that no one really knows who or what killed her, but that it really doen't matter. She died because DD failed her. That to cannot be dressed up. He felt guilty over it for the rest of his life and quite rightly too. DD, as you have pointed out, and on a rereading of the canon I have to agree with you failed in his responsability as a human being and it very likely did have something to do with his later association with Snape. He could see his mistakes being repeated and probably did all in his power to point Snape in the right direction.

As for Snape's salvation, I think it was a hard ongoing process throughout his life. I think that about all of us. Living your life is something that happens fresh every day. We are none of us cast in amber. I think to say that he changed overnight and stayed that way is simply unrealistic. I think he failed at being a decent human being many times in the books. I think that about myself too in my own life. I hope like Snape I never give up trying.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by eliza101

I have to agree with WWB. IMO Snape was not interested in saving any lives out of altruistic feelings. He wanted to save Lily's life so that he could have her to himself, without the baggage of a husband and baby preferably. It isn't nice and the thought of it quite rightly disgusted DD.

This might be true if Snape had not come to Dumbledore IMO.

As for Snape's salvation, I think it was a hard ongoing process throughout his life. I think that about all of us. Living your life is something that happens fresh every day. We are none of us cast in amber. I think to say that he changed overnight and stayed that way is simply unrealistic. I think he failed at being a decent human being many times in the books. I think that about myself too in my own life. I hope like Snape I never give up trying.

Oh I agree. I never said Snape changed overnight and stayed that way for the rest of his life. I only said "Once he turned to the Light, I think it was a continuous process of evolving, until he died."

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I would like to ask a question here. I do believe Dumbledore was so upset because he thought of himself at that time more than Snape. But if you believe Dumbledore did not like Snape asking only for the life of Lily, then I ask why? Why did not Dumbledore want Snape to try and save the lives of as many people as he could? What was the immorality there that was disgusting?

In literary terms, going to Voldemort was like making a deal with the devil based on a selfish desire rather than trying to do the right thing. The right thing to do would be to go straight to Dumbledore, realizing that was the best way to undo ALL of what he'd wrought. However, Snape was still only concerned about Lily when he went to Dumbledore - in Dumbledore's eyes (and mine too). That is why it occurred to Dumbledore that if Snape was intelligent and still thinking like a DE, he would have attempted to go to Voldemort first - and he confirmed that is exactly what had happened. That is why Dumbledore saw an opportunity to address the moral issue with Snape and he did so, imo. The point was that Snape taking the prophecy had resulted in 3 people being endangered and undoing that danger in terms of all three was what should have concerned a morally correct thinking individual - to Dumbledore's mind. That is the point he was trying to stress to Snape, imo. Dumbledore understood that he was dealing with a Death Eater (in terms of Snape's beliefs) - and if Snape were going to help him try to undo what he'd done, he would have to start thinking on moral terms that were different from how a Death Eater thought.

Keeping Lily safe so Snape could have some nebulous future friendship or relationship with her - or so Snape could see her in the future from afar - or so that in Snape's mind he could imagine she was "safe" and not dead, are all very selfish reasons that do not take Lily into consideration (in terms of her happiness or sanity) - they only take Snape into consideration - his sanity and his happiness. That is not correct in a moral sense, imo and Dumbledore wanted to try and help Snape from that moment forward - and help him understand why that would be disgusting from a morally correct standpoint, imo.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

In literary terms, going to Voldemort was like making a deal with the devil based on a selfish desire rather than trying to do the right thing.

I disagree. It was trying to right a wrong; from all sides.

The right thing to do would be to go straight to Dumbledore, realizing that was the best way to undo ALL of what he'd wrought. However, Snape was still only concerned about Lily when he went to Dumbledore - in Dumbledore's eyes (and mine too).

I really don't understand. Snape's actions say he came there to warn Dumbledore of the danger to the Potters. Just because, in the Potter family, his concern was Lily specifically, does it take away his act of coming to warn Dumbledore in time? How can it?

That is why it occurred to Dumbledore that if Snape was intelligent and still thinking like a DE, he would have attempted to go to Voldemort first - and he confirmed that is exactly what had happened. That is why Dumbledore saw an opportunity to address the moral issue with Snape and he did so, imo.

I don't think there was any moral issue here. If anyone had done anything moral, I believe it was Snape by coming to Dumbledore knowing that it would reflect on him poorly, still did the right thing, rather than the easy thing by sending an anonymous owl.

The point was that Snape taking the prophecy had resulted in 3 people being endangered and undoing that danger in terms of all three was what should have concerned a morally correct thinking individual - to Dumbledore's mind.

If Dumbledore should blame anyone for the Prophecy reaching Voldemort, he should blame himself. Had he questioned Snape properly that night and oblivated him, this would have never happened IMO.

Keeping Lily safe so Snape could have some nebulous future friendship or relationship with her - or so Snape could see her in the future from afar - or so that in Snape's mind he could imagine she was "safe" and not dead, are all very selfish reasons that do not take Lily into consideration (in terms of her happiness or sanity) - they only take Snape into consideration - his sanity and his happiness. That is not correct in a moral sense, imo and Dumbledore wanted to try and help Snape from that moment forward - and help him understand why that would be disgusting from a morally correct standpoint, imo.

And so he should not have asked for Lily's life, even though he could save one life out of three? I disagree. If Snape could have asked for both Harry and Lily's or for James and Lily's and yet he asked only for Lily's life then yes, I'd agree that perhaps Snape was only thinking about himself and not Lily and her family.

Snape could in no way ask for Harry's life or James'; too many people knew how much James and Snape hated each other; it would have made Voldemort suspicious of Snape's loyalty and he might have acted on that suspicion accusing Snape to be a traitor and then Snape would have never met with Dumbledore. As far as Harry was concerned, Voldemort would have never let Snape complete his request for Harry's life IMO.

Snape asked for the only life he could of Voldemort, once again because everyone knew of his friendship with her and he could convince Voldemort he loved her, again, because he truly did.

Then he came to Dumbledore. I don't think Snape was thinking about himself; his desires or his anything. He was there to warn Dumbledore, even if, as he thought, Dumbledore would kill him.

That he thought Dumbledore would kill him is interesting. It goes back to my theory that Dumbledore was aware that Snape was a DE; those are his first words to Snape. So, in Hog's Head he must have learnt enough to know that Snape was a DE; which means he must have also learnt enough to know what Snape knew about the prophecy IMO.

[wolfbrother]

IMO Snape went to Dumbledore because he did not believe that Voldemort would heed his request. I'm not sure if I remember correctly but IMO he asks Dumbledore to protect Lily and only later after getting reprimanded says to protect all of them. The fact that Voldemort did indeed look into Snape's request is something that was unexpected.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

IMO Snape went to Dumbledore because he did not believe that Voldemort would heed his request. I'm not sure if I remember correctly but IMO he asks Dumbledore to protect Lily and only later after getting reprimanded says to protect all of them. The fact that Voldemort did indeed look into Snape's request is something that was unexpected.

Snape asked for Lily first, which was because he loved her and so was concerned about her. I think Snape was thinking primarily of Lily and he naturally voiced his concern about the person who mattered the most to him; but whatever his thoughts about James and Harry, unless he wanted them dead ( in which case he would not have come to Dumbledore at all) his act of going to Dumbledore ensured that not just Lily but the Potters would be saved.

Snape knew Voldemort was going to honour his request; he had promised Snape; it was because of that request that Lily's death was able to create a protection that ultimately saved Harry IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I really don't understand. Snape's actions say he came there to warn Dumbledore of the danger to the Potters. Just because, in the Potter family, his concern was Lily specifically, does it take away his act of coming to warn Dumbledore in time? How can it?

Well I feel Dumbledore wasn't upset about the 'act' of coming to him - that was the right thing to do. He was upset because of what Snape was 'thinking' and that is what he addressed in an attempt to help Snape consider the morally correct way of seeing the situation, imo.

If Dumbledore should blame anyone for the Prophecy reaching Voldemort, he should blame himself. Had he questioned Snape properly that night and oblivated him, this would have never happened IMO.

Dumbledore was pretty good at looking at himself and finding his wrongs. But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't wish to help Snape also.

And so he should not have asked for Lily's life, even though he could save one life out of three? I disagree. If Snape could have asked for both Harry and Lily's or for James and Lily's and yet he asked only for Lily's life then yes, I'd agree that perhaps Snape was only thinking about himself and not Lily and her family.

Right because one out of three would still leave Snape with two deaths on his hands. That is why there would still be a moral issue. In other words, Voldemort could not help him if he was trying to save them all.

Initially we were discussing why Dumbledore felt disgust. Imo, it was for the reason he gave. He didn't like Snape having thought about saving only Lily (when he went to Voldemort) and he didn't like that Snape's only concern was Lily when he arrived on the hill. That is what Dumbledore said, so I believe that is what he was thinking. I agree with him, so it makes sense to me that he would feel disgusted and try to help Snape see the light - especially in light of the fact that he wanted to have Snape help him. However, if you disagree with what Dumbledore said, I can understand that and we would likely just have to agree to disagree on this issue.