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Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French



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  #1441  
Old September 12th, 2010, 9:57 pm
AddictQq  Male.gif AddictQq is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Well, you're talking about french canadian, I'm talking about the real french, and maybe we don't speak the perfect french, but who cares ? Everyone speaks like that in France.

As for my signature i may have done a mistranslation from english to french, but it's the same idea, and a lot of people would have write it they same way I've done, but whatever, my french is good enough, I've got good results in my french exam, so I guess I know what i'm talking about (and i'm french)

ps: when I say "french" I mean french from France, because obviously it's not really the same french (as for american and english in fact)


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  #1442  
Old September 12th, 2010, 10:48 pm
canismajoris  Male.gif canismajoris is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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Well, you're talking about french canadian, I'm talking about the real french, and maybe we don't speak the perfect french, but who cares ? Everyone speaks like that in France.
I will have to take your word for it, since I've never been to France (and who is talking about Canadian French?), but the grammar we're discussing, as you said it, really doesn't make any sense to me, and it's not just a matter of a usage choice. While the French may put more stock in rules than I think is strictly necessary, there are real standards that can cause misunderstanding if not followed. I literally just don't know what "if I would be" could possibly mean. I say ignore what's right or wrong and focus on being understood.

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Originally Posted by AddictQq View Post
As for my signature i may have done a mistranslation from english to french, but it's the same idea, and a lot of people would have write it they same way I've done, but whatever, my french is good enough, I've got good results in my french exam, so I guess I know what i'm talking about (and i'm french)
We're not trying to criticize you, this is a "place to improve your French", so there's no need to take it like that. I presented to you my understanding of the grammatical conventions, which if I say so is a pretty good understanding, because there seemed to be some confusion--I wasn't accusing you of being bad at French.

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ps: when I say "french" I mean french from France, because obviously it's not really the same french (as for american and english in fact)
The differences between English and American English and French and Canadian French are so paltry they're barely worth any mention to students who are anything less than advanced. There is no such thing as a "real" language when it's compared to other dialects.



Last edited by canismajoris; September 12th, 2010 at 10:52 pm.
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  #1443  
Old September 12th, 2010, 11:40 pm
Muggle_Magic  Male.gif Muggle_Magic is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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Well, you're talking about french canadian, I'm talking about the real french, and maybe we don't speak the perfect french, but who cares ? Everyone speaks like that in France.
I was born in France and visit there quite frequently though I now live in the US. I have NEVER heard anyone say "Si je serais".* If your professors say that, no wonder the French language is going down the drain.

Canadian French is actually more grammatically correct than the French spoken in France, especially among the younger people who text (what you call SMS) more than they actually write. Like Fleur says, the fact that a lot of people make the same mistake doesn't make it correct.

So the French will say "Je peux pas" instead of "Je ne peux pas". Not correct but so widespread it's accepted. Ditto for the uneducated in England or the US who use "ain't" and the double negative ("It ain't no use", or "I don't want no trouble", or "I can't get no satisfaction"). I should say, the uneducated and the educated who do it on purpose, as a pose - "I tell ya, there ain't no free lunch, buddy" from one CEO (PDG in French) to the next, for example.

In both the US and France, it was fashionable at one point to talk ungrammatically and use words with bad connotations (like a woman saying "Je suis maquée" simply to say she has a boyfriend). The parents did it, the kids followed suit, not knowing any better. You may be too young to have read Claire Brétécher's comic strips, especially "Les frustrés", but the way her characters talk are a perfect example. They are middle-class to upper-middle-class French people who speak bad French on purpose. That set a bad example, and language went downhill from there.

I totally agree with Fleur and Canis. The grammatical rules exist, and as far as the conditional ("je serais") is concerned, they have not changed." Si je serais" makes no sense, either grammatically or syntactically, and I'm quoting Canis here. And Bill, the rules may change, but not that drastically. That phrase makes no logical sense either.

Quote:
ps: when I say "french" I mean french from France, because obviously it's not really the same french (as for american and english in fact)
Oh it is the same French all right. It's just being misused by the natives. What you call "real French" - and correct me if I'm wrong - is the French you hear in the street and around you. It may be colloquial French, but it's ungrammatical and incorrect even if it's widely used.

That doesn't make it "good French", and it's not the kind of French we should be promoting here to foreigners who want to learn French. They'll get the ungrammatical argotic French fast enough once they're over there, but it's better if they learn it according to the set rules first. At least in my opinion.

* ETA - I never heard "Si je serais", but I am well aware of the saying "Si j'aurais su, j'aurais pas venu!" which is totally incorrect grammatically but has become a catch phrase. At least it was way back when, in the late 60's and early 70's (obviously before you were born). Started as a joke, mimicking a kid in some movie or comic strip or other, then everyone started using it. At first people knew it was a deliberate joke in grammatically incorrect French, but obviously the younger generation doesn't.



Last edited by Muggle_Magic; September 13th, 2010 at 12:19 am. Reason: ETA
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  #1444  
Old September 13th, 2010, 12:34 am
canismajoris  Male.gif canismajoris is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Well maybe rules don't change that fast, no.

Remind me to keep an eye on this though, if I'm still around in 50 years I'd love to see if standard usage becomes more in the colloquial way.

ETA:

Actually the "si j'aurais su, j'aurais pas venu" reminds me of a dialectical usage in English: "If I woulda known..." (or "if I only woulda known) only in this case, I have a feeling this is an isolated clause that doesn't fit the usual condition-result pattern. It may be some sort of ellipsis, implying a conditional clause in cases where the context doesn't require explicit mention of the result.



Last edited by canismajoris; September 13th, 2010 at 5:55 am.
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  #1445  
Old September 13th, 2010, 2:40 pm
AddictQq  Male.gif AddictQq is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Well, in my opinion french grammar is too hard, and you never learn all the rules ( and if you do, you forget 50%), and i'm sure you can't learn french only by reading books. And like i said every 'region' in France has it 'own' french, overall, it's the same, only synthax changes, so maybe we don't use all of our own grammar, but who does ? [staff edit] So yes we make mistakes because we speak french more than we write it (kind of logic), so if your family is used to say 'si je serais' instead of 'si j'avais été' you will use it when you speak and when you write, but since everyone does the same, none pays attention, that's why you don't understand i guess.
When i read you, i feel like you think french is a dead language like latin. And I'm sure there is the same thing in every countries.

As for 'si j'aurais su, je saurais pas venu' it's from a book if i remember well (La guerre des boutons) and used by kids mostly.

Afterall I don't see the point to argued about it, since we could spend 10 years on this subject and still think our own way to think is better than one other. All I know is : if you want to say 'si je serais' when you speak, none will give attention (at least in my region) because it's commom, but in other regions people may thinks you're funny.


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Last edited by Alastor; September 14th, 2010 at 8:05 pm. Reason: foul language
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  #1446  
Old September 16th, 2010, 1:14 am
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
Oh it is the same French all right. It's just being misused by the natives. What you call "real French" - and correct me if I'm wrong - is the French you hear in the street and around you. It may be colloquial French, but it's ungrammatical and incorrect even if it's widely used.

That doesn't make it "good French", and it's not the kind of French we should be promoting here to foreigners who want to learn French. They'll get the ungrammatical argotic French fast enough once they're over there, but it's better if they learn it according to the set rules first. At least in my opinion.
I agree. Sory, but the natives in the street aren't a good model when you want to learn a language. I mean: learn the rules and the grammar first, and then, you can speak the argotic version, if you want, but at least, you will know where the difference lies, and you will be able to speak also the correct language when it's needed.

Edit: I liked Claire Brétécher's comics... :P


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  #1447  
Old September 16th, 2010, 5:53 am
Muggle_Magic  Male.gif Muggle_Magic is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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I agree. Sory, but the natives in the street aren't a good model when you want to learn a language. I mean: learn the rules and the grammar first, and then, you can speak the argotic version, if you want, but at least, you will know where the difference lies, and you will be able to speak also the correct language when it's needed.
Yes, that's it exactly, thank you for understanding.

This thread is for "Improving" your French, not learning teen-agers' street-level argot and incorrect phrasing.

Quote:
Edit: I liked Claire Brétécher's comics... :P
She's great, isn't she? Her social commentary is totally to-the-point. The "Histoire d'A", about a young bride before and after her wedding night is hilarious.

And did you see her version of Joan of Arc's story? With the English offering "chewyng gum" to Joan as she is herding her geese? And because she had otitis, she couldn't hear the Angel's voices telling her to go save France? Also the dialogue between the saints and angels as she is, um, taking a leak, oblivious to everything around her. And the punch line, because she never heard the heavenly voices, she stayed a farm girl "et elle se fit chyer toute sa vie". It had me rolling on the floor.


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  #1448  
Old September 16th, 2010, 10:36 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
When you're a small child, that's hard on the baby sitter if he or she speaks only one of the two languages.

My nephews used, quite innocently, to drive theirs to distraction because they would tell her things like "Maintenant on voudrait manger des chuôi" - how was she to know that they were asking for bananas, using a Vietnamese word in a French sentence?

What two languages do you speak, Wolfbrother?
Actually I'm worse now. I was born in India and grew up in different parts of India. Since each state in India has its own language, I speak few of them as do most of my friends. We end up speaking a mix of all the languages we know. In a way, we are able to express ourselves better because some things are easier to express in other languages. I can imagine it sounds really weird for people who don't speak all the languages.


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  #1449  
Old January 23rd, 2011, 8:47 am
Eir  Female.gif Eir is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Ça fait longtemps que je ne suis pas venue ici! Comment allez-vous? J'ai besoin de pratiquer plus ici maintenant, parce que j'ai terminé mes études * l'université. Je vous remercie pour votre aide ces dernières années. N'hesitez pas * corriger les (mes?) fautes de grammaire, s'il vous plaît.

Est-ce que vous pouvez m'aider avec quelque chose * propos du film? Je cherche le titre d'un film que j'ai vu il y a longtemps. Je pense que Daniel Auteuil est dans le film, et il croit avoir écraser quelqu'un, mais c'est actuellement un complot et il ne l'a pas fait. Je n'ai pas voir tout le film, malheureusement, donc je ne sais rien de plus, mais je pense que c'est l'intrigue principale.


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  #1450  
Old January 27th, 2011, 5:20 am
Bzhilanskaia  Female.gif Bzhilanskaia is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

I was wondering if anyone knew what to expect in the National French Exam... I'm in French l as a freshman in high school and have decided to start studying a tad bit more vigorously night to night, parce que j'adore étudier français(les langues sont passionant et intéressant) et want to get better at it.

Ah, I love that setting on my computer where I can type in foreign characters.


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Last edited by Bzhilanskaia; January 27th, 2011 at 7:59 pm.
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  #1451  
Old January 27th, 2011, 7:49 pm
Niniel_  Female.gif Niniel_ is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Alors, bonjour. J'aime bien parler français mais je n'ai pas beaucoup de chances pour le pratiquer. Je l'ai étudié pour trois années * l'université. Quand j'ai fini l'université j'ai arrété * lire et * écrire en français tous les jours, et bien sur, je ne le parle pas d'habitude. J'espére que je pourrai l'écrire ici et l'ameliorer. Il me manque beaucoup et je ne voudrais pas l'oublier. L'année dernière je suis allée * Paris pour trois semaines et j'ai gagné un très bon niveau dont je suis en train de perdre.

Je n'ai pas lu aucun des livres de Harry Potter en français, alors je ne pense pas que je sois capable de pouvoir parler d'eux ici.

Ok, that was hard for me, what a shame! I should be able to speak it as well as English. Please correct my mistakes!!



Last edited by Niniel_; January 27th, 2011 at 8:10 pm.
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  #1452  
Old January 27th, 2011, 10:12 pm
Muggle_Magic  Male.gif Muggle_Magic is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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Originally Posted by Niniel_ View Post
Alors, bonjour. J'aime bien parler français mais je n'ai pas beaucoup de chances pour le pratiquer. Je l'ai étudié pour trois années * l'université. Quand j'ai fini l'université j'ai arrété * lire et * écrire en français tous les jours, et bien sur, je ne le parle pas d'habitude. J'espére que je pourrai l'écrire ici et l'ameliorer. Il me manque beaucoup et je ne voudrais pas l'oublier. L'année dernière je suis allée * Paris pour trois semaines et j'ai gagné un très bon niveau dont je suis en train de perdre.

Je n'ai pas lu aucun des livres de Harry Potter en français, alors je ne pense pas que je sois capable de pouvoir parler d'eux ici.

Ok, that was hard for me, what a shame! I should be able to speak it as well as English. Please correct my mistakes!!
Niniel, your French is very good. It's actually better than that of some French people I know - for example, you didn't fall into the trap of putting an "s" at the end of "je pourrai" - which a lot of French people do.

Here's the edited version of your post:

Alors, bonjour. J'aime bien parler français mais je n'ai pas beaucoup d'occasions de le pratiquer. Je l'ai étudié <s>pour</s> trois an[née]s * l'université. Quand j'ai fini l'université j'ai arrêté de lire et d'écrire en français tous les jours, et bien sûr, je ne le parle pas d'habitude. J'espére que je pourrai l'écrire ici et l'ameliorer. Il me manque beaucoup et je ne voudrais pas l'oublier. L'année dernière je suis allée * Paris [pendant] trois semaines et j'ai atteint un très bon niveau que je suis en train de perdre.

Je n'ai <s>pas</s> lu aucun* des livres de Harry Potter en français, alors je ne pense pas être capable d'en parler <s>d'eux</s> ici.

* The "pas" is superfluous. No double negative in this case.

All in all though, I'd say you're level is pretty high.

ETA - Oops - I was trying to do a strikeout with the <s> thing but it didn't work. The words between <s> and </s> are stricken out as superfluous. I put them in red instead.



Last edited by Muggle_Magic; January 27th, 2011 at 10:13 pm. Reason: ETA
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  #1453  
Old January 27th, 2011, 11:21 pm
Niniel_  Female.gif Niniel_ is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

T_T J'étais en train d'envoyer le message quand je l'ai effacé completement!!

Je voulais dire que je suis très hereuse de m'en souvenir d'autant français, et merci beaucoup pour ton aide! Je devrais parler et écrire un français parfait car je suis traductrice, mais il y a un ann que je ne l'utilise pas. J'ai pensé * lire des livres en français mais je ne sais pas quoi choisir. Le dernier livre que j'ai lu a été "Ensemble, c'est tout" écrit par Anna Gavalda. Est-ce que quelq'un a des recommandations?

By the way (Comment est-ce qu'on dit ça en français?), je suis espagnole, mais j'habite * l'Anglaterre. Je veux returner * Paris pour visiter l'Opéra une fois encore, j'adore ce bâtiment.



Last edited by Niniel_; January 27th, 2011 at 11:24 pm.
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  #1454  
Old January 28th, 2011, 5:34 pm
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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T_T J'étais en train d'envoyer le message quand je l'ai effacé completement!!

Je voulais dire que je suis très hereuse de m'en souvenir d'autant français, et merci beaucoup pour ton aide! Je devrais parler et écrire un français parfait car je suis traductrice, mais il y a un ann que je ne l'utilise pas. J'ai pensé * lire des livres en français mais je ne sais pas quoi choisir. Le dernier livre que j'ai lu a été "Ensemble, c'est tout" écrit par Anna Gavalda. Est-ce que quelq'un a des recommandations?

By the way (Comment est-ce qu'on dit ça en français?), je suis espagnole, mais j'habite * l'Anglaterre. Je veux returner * Paris pour visiter l'Opéra une fois encore, j'adore ce bâtiment.
Je suis francophone mais je ne lis qu'en anglais afin d'améliorer mon anglais, donc je ne suis pas de grand secours pour des choix de livres, Quel genre de livre aimes-tu? Je peux demander * d'autre lecteurs plus avisés.
Pour ce qui est de "by the way" on peut dire "en passant" .
Je t'envie d'être trilingue. I wish I was, or even perfectly bilingual would be nice.


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  #1455  
Old January 28th, 2011, 9:21 pm
Muggle_Magic  Male.gif Muggle_Magic is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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By the way (Comment est-ce qu'on dit ça en français?), je suis espagnole, mais j'habite * l'Anglaterre. Je veux returner * Paris pour visiter l'Opéra une fois encore, j'adore ce bâtiment.
Re-bonjour Niniel.

Je n'ai pas beaucoup de temps aujourd'hui, je réponds juste rapidement.

"By the way" se dit "À propos".

Tu habites en Angleterre, pas "* l'Angleterre", et tu veux "revenir ("retourner" est correct aussi, mais "revenir" est mieux) * Paris pour visiter l'Opéra encore une fois". (Tu as inversé "encore" et "une fois" - l* non plus, ce n'est pas incorrect, mais "encore une fois" vient plus naturellement.)

Pour les livres, il y en a tellement... Tout dépend de tes goûts en lecture. Quel genre de littérature aimes-tu?


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  #1456  
Old February 1st, 2011, 3:22 am
hermionebrains  Undisclosed.gif hermionebrains is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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I was wondering if anyone knew what to expect in the National French Exam... I'm in French l as a freshman in high school and have decided to start studying a tad bit more vigorously night to night, parce que j'adore étudier français(les langues sont passionant et intéressant) et want to get better at it.

Ah, I love that setting on my computer where I can type in foreign characters.
Don't worry- l'examen national de francais est tres facile. =) The questions are mainly on defiite/ indefinite articles, adverbs, etc, and mostly fill-in-the-blank multiple choice. So there'll be a few paragraphs with blanks here and there, and there'll be choices for each blank. Sometimes the answer is nothing, though, so you have to be careful. Then there are a few reading-based comprehension type questions, and multiple choice again... oh, yeah, there's listening at the beginning as well, and you only get to hear each passage and its questions twice- so listen carefully, because all you can see are the answer choices!

Bonjour tout le monde! Ca fait cinq ans que j'etudie le francais, et j'adore la langue ^.^

Je m'excuse pour l'absence des accents, mais je suis un peu occupe maintenant et je n'ai pas le temps de les trouver =\

Mais, j'ai voulu dire que j'aime ce "thread" et je pense qu'on vas me voir ici plus souvent a partir de ce moment =)


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  #1457  
Old February 1st, 2011, 3:39 am
Bzhilanskaia  Female.gif Bzhilanskaia is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Merci, beaucoup! I guess I should just focus on being better at the listening, then. I always dread the "Ecoutez!" parts of the quizzes in class. I'll come back to this thread in two years when I can actually comprehend all the things said here, as I can only understand some maintenant. Au revoir, tout le monde.


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  #1458  
Old April 6th, 2011, 12:05 am
Sarahx  Female.gif Sarahx is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

Hey! I've posted in this thread before (a long time ago) so I thought I'd come back. I can mostly understand what people are saying but I'm not that great at typing, so I apologise in advance.

Salut! Je m'appelle Sarah, j'ai 19 ans et j'habite en Angleterre avec mes parents. Je ne parle pas bien le français, surtout car j'ai etudié la langue il y a deux ans. Je m'excuse pour les erreurs dans cette paragraphe - il y a beaucoup. En mai, je vais aller au vacances en Kenya avec mes parents, et après je serai aller * l'Amerique. Je vais travailler dans un camp d'été en Connecticut pendant deux mois.

En Octobre, je vais être un étudiant * la Central School of Speech and Drama en Londres et j'etudierai Scenic Art. Corrige-moi, s'il vous plait.


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  #1459  
Old April 7th, 2011, 3:13 pm
AddictQq  Male.gif AddictQq is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

I'm kinda impressed, a lot of people here have a decent french ( mainly after 2 years for some). In France, even after 7 years studying english, most of us still have a lot of troubles. (so do I)

Tbh, if you want to read french book, you should start with the Harry Potters. Or books in english, translated in french.


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  #1460  
Old April 8th, 2011, 12:01 am
Sarahx  Female.gif Sarahx is offline
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Re: Beauxbatons: the place to improve your French

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I'm kinda impressed, a lot of people here have a decent french ( mainly after 2 years for some). In France, even after 7 years studying english, most of us still have a lot of troubles. (so do I)

Tbh, if you want to read french book, you should start with the Harry Potters. Or books in english, translated in french.
I actually have the first HP book in French, I tried reading it.


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